Brent 0:02

Welcome to Soul Session. This is a brand new podcast. Uh, it's a podcast of mending the soul, and it's a place for honest conversations and transformative healing and the kind of hope that doesn't shy away when things get hardened. And this is our very first episode. And we're starting with something that matters deeply. What happens when scripture is used the way God intended, and what happens when it isn't? Because for many people, the Bible has been a refuge, but for others, it's been used like a weapon. Not because God's word is harmful, but because it's mishandled by people, often well-meaning caring people who simply don't know the truth of what God has said. Today we're talking about a new book to heal or harm. It's a book by Dr. Steve Tracy, and it's written to help survivors, leaders, and everyday believers reclaim scripture as medicine again. So whether you've been wounded, whether you're trying to help someone who has, or you simply want to understand how the church can do better, you're in the right place. We're really glad you're here.

Steve 1:20

Really glad to do this, Brent.

Brent 1:22

So, first of all, let's get into how did this book come to be? What prompted you to uh to write this book? Um, maybe why why why this book? Why now?

Steve 1:33

Yeah, uh this book has been a couple decades in the making uh for Celeste and I, commending the soul as a nonprofit, it's been around getting close to 25 years, and even longer than that, uh God has had led Celeste and I to serve survivors in particular in the church. And we've just repeatedly seen, as you said, uh often well-meaning, uh, Christian leaders, sometimes it's apparent, um, and I've done it myself, particularly as a young pastor, misuse scripture because a, I didn't understand, particularly the counterintuitive aspects of abuse, and there are many of them, uh, and I didn't understand some things about scripture. Uh, God's word is not simple. The gospel's simple. Uh, I I love what Martin Luther said about the Bible. Um, he said, Scripture is deep enough for an elephant to swim in and shallow enough for a little child to bathe in.

Brent 2:38

Wow.

Steve 2:38

Uh, that that expresses the somewhat the paradox. Um, you know, there's there's plain truths that that for everyone, not not just the elite, you know, ultra-educated, but at the same time, uh Paul him, I mean, scripture itself talks about there are things that are hard to understand within scripture. And uh, so that that creates, unless one is humble, you can come to scripture in a um maybe a knee-jerk fashion and draw principles that actually aren't there, and then you can be very dogmatic and applying those in inappropriate ways to survivors. And and frankly, sometimes survivors weaponize scripture against themselves. Again, because of the complexity. Um, I think of the woman who was just, she actually gave up her faith because she read Turn the Other Cheek uh in uh Matthew in the Sermon on the Mount, and she thought God was saying, uh do nothing to resist an abusive evildoer, in her case, uh an abusive parent, and it all but destroyed her spiritually, psychologically. I actually don't think that's what was being said, but again, um sometimes we misinterpret scripture and there are there are tragic results when that happens.

Brent 4:01

Where do the where do these uh mis uh misabuse? That's not the word, where do these um misreadings come from, really?

Steve 4:14

All kinds of things from our own, honestly, sinful biases, sometimes uh not infrequently, we hear what we want to hear in scripture, and that may be um just out of our own sinful bent. And you particularly see that in the way abusers misread scripture. Uh I think the way uh abusive men will read text about uh wives submitting and other things, and uh and and use that as a battering ram. And that's just coming out of a hardened, sinful heart. Uh but again, it's it's not just that, it's it's sometimes just naivity, um uh you know, a variety of things, cultural conditioning. Every culture has beauty and every culture has some distortion. That that's just the the nature of living in a fallen world. So 150 years ago, uh virtually the entire population of the southern United States read texts about slaves obey your masters, and they were absolutely convinced from scripture that God was saying slavery is uh ordained of God, and um they were willing to go to war to to defend it.

Brent 5:30

Yeah.

Steve 5:30

So um, you know, you have cultural things going on as well. So it's kind of a porridge of um factors that can cause us to misread scripture.

Brent 5:41

It becomes pretty easy to uh to to uh come to your conclusion and try and find a conclusion in scripture rather than the other way around.

Steve 5:51

Absolutely, yeah. And that's that's scary. I often tell my students, uh, I spent 30 years teaching seminary students. Um I wonder, and we should all be asking ourselves, 50 years from now, what will Christians looking back say about our confident conclusions from scripture? Like, well, the the way I can look back 150 years ago and say, how could those Christians in the South have thought that? Yeah, but uh we're we're no less susceptible. And one of early in the book, I talk about um pre-w prerequisites for a healthy interpretation of scripture, and one of those is a receptive, humble posture. I especially say this to church leaders, uh, because that's been my history. Uh, you know, I've been a church leader most of my adult life, and um those times that I thought I had it all figured out, and I wasn't humble, I wasn't receptive to a different perspective. Boy, um that's how you you'll real quickly go astray. So I think that's really essential for all of us to have an open-handed, humble posture of Lord, teach me, show me where I'm off, because we are all off at points.

Brent 7:12

Yeah, yeah. And one of the things I really appreciate about the book is uh someone may see a book like this and think that this is a condemnation of scripture, or it's a uh a condemnation of uh places where the scripture gets it wrong. And that's not what this is at all. This is this is revealing what the truth really is.

Steve 7:34

Yeah, it's the opposite. A foundational starting point for me in writing this book is that scripture, and I talk about this early on in the book. Yeah, I'm convinced that scripture is God's word, it's it's inspired. Second Timothy 3, 16 and 17. It's in Greek theopnustos, God breathed. Um, I have complete I stand on scripture as God's trustworthy, authoritative word, and that motivated me to write this book because Satan, the deceiver and destroyer, wants to take God's life-giving word and prompt us to twist it so that instead of scripture being life-giving, it's soul sucking, it's soul destroying.

Brent 8:21

How disheartening is it when the very words that are meant to bring healing and transformation are the words that you stop trusting.

Steve 8:32

Exactly.

Brent 8:34

How much does trust have to do with that?

Steve 8:38

Oh, it has so much to to do with with this. Um, and I think that's why Satan strategizes to um promote false teaching, um, to discourage believers, um so that we don't trust God's word. Because boy, once once he has us there, um it's it's as if the the very platform of security that we need to sit on has just been chopped, sawn off. Um, and that's just so tragic. I I describe scripture in the book as God's love letter, and I truly believe that. Uh, our God is a God of mercy, He He delights in healing and redeeming. So, scripture from Genesis to Revelation, if you trace the big themes, um, they're they're about um the love of God. Yeah, one of my goals is to reclaim, and that that sounds almost arrogant. I don't mean that. God's the one who does the work, but I I desire to contribute toward people seeing scripture as not a voice of condemnation, but rather uh a love letter from their creator.

Brent 9:55

I've heard survivors say this in talking to Mitting the Soul and talking to each other, that they bring these stories of abuse to spiritual leaders or to uh another person, and they're confronted with these um misinterpretations of scripture that is designed to silence them, and they they don't feel equipped to answer. They feel like it's a it's a spiritual leader or a pastor, or it's someone that should know better, or it's someone that they feel is more experienced, and they don't they don't have a way to respond. They don't have a way to say, you know, I don't think that's true. Here's why. They may feel that it isn't true, but they don't really have the uh the tools to say that it isn't true.

Steve 10:41

Absolutely. I have two audiences, had two audiences in mind in writing this book. And the first and primary would be lay people.

Brent 10:50

Sure.

Steve 10:51

No, I've I've written for the academy, if you will, the academic stuff, and then that's that's great, but that's not my primary uh target audience for the book. Uh, number one, I desired to speak to survivors, uh, to give them tools to address exactly what you're describing, Brent. The Bereans in the book of Acts. You might remember when Paul came to Berea uh on his missionary journey. Uh, here's he's an apostle, a former Pharisee, which would have meant an expert in the law of Moses. And they didn't just take what he said because he was a spiritual leader with such uh elite training in the scriptures. Uh, Luke tells us they searched the scriptures to see basically if what he said, uh what he was teaching them accorded with the scriptures. Um these were lay, they these were what what we would call lay people, they weren't the spiritual leaders. What an example for us. So um I won't I give six principles in the first couple chapters of the book, chapters two and three, uh, six of the most important principles for interpreting scripture. What we call that hermeneutics. It's the basically the fancy word. Yeah, it's uh the fancy word uh for principles of interpretation, because I want to equip empower lay people to be able to come to God's word with confidence and interpret it. Yeah, it doesn't mean there's no role for specialist, if you will, with advanced training. Uh I mean, I have that. It's an entrustment by God. That's why I wrote the book to equip. So, yeah, there's a definitely a role for teachers. It's interesting in 1 John, I think it's chapter 2. Um, in a context of uh a heresy that uh probably an early form of what we call Gnosticism, which comes from the Greek word for knowledge, uh the and it really developed in a full-form way by the second century. But it seems these this was an early group of Gnostics, and the the belief of this group was that they had the special gnosis, knowledge, yeah, and they were the hyper-spiritual, the elite. So if you wanted to be spiritual and have a relationship with God, then you had to listen to them, to obey them, to follow their teachings, because only they really knew, and you could get kind of the inside track. So it's in that context that in chapter two, I love this. John says, You don't need a teacher, you don't need anyone to teach her uh to teach you. You have an anointing, uh, and that's no doubt a reference to the Holy Spirit. Sure. Every believer is is in dwelt with the Holy Spirit, and we know from the Gospel of John that this Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth, he teaches um as God's children. So it is kind of ironic because John the apostle is writing this epistle to teach them, but then he turns around and says, You don't need a teacher. It's uh both and obviously we do need teachers, but John's trying to put it in perspective and saying, ultimately, you have the Holy Spirit as your teacher, don't fall into the trap of being intimidated by spiritual leaders that say, I'm the only one that can give you truth. You have to listen to me. This is what God's word means. Well, if if there's that kind of dogmatism that only they know the truth, that's that's no longer biblical. So I want to empower lay people with good principles for hermeneutics based on years of study, uh, that they can then take those six principles and apply it to scripture for themselves and hopefully come away with some real confidence in their own convictions.

Brent 15:00

And you hear people say, you know, with scripture, different people interpret it different ways. This person may interpret it this way, this person may interpret it this way, both of them can be true. Hermeneutics teaches us there's there's a way to figure out what the truth is, and there are some principles to divine that out of all of the different opinions and the different uh different interpretations, right?

Steve 15:27

Yeah, absolutely. Um it's kind of the spirit of the age. Postmodernity would say that the truth is there is no such thing as absolute truth, everything's relative. Brent, you have your truth, I have my truth, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not working off that framework. God has spoken in his word. And again, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. We want to hold our views humbly, recognize that the problem is not that that scripture doesn't isn't absolutely trustworthy, it is, but we want to be humble because while scripture is trust trustworthy, we're finite humans. Yeah, and so we need to hold our views with a significant level of humility to always be teachable to a new perspective. Yeah, I don't think you you know, with a given passage that, well, there could be ten interpretations and they're simultaneously true for different people. Uh I know. Now there are countless applications, sure. But um, as far as the meaning God intended, no, I I don't think it's anything goes. And sound sound principles of interpretation will help us arrive at the most likely meaning. Um, and again, we hold that with humility and we recognize some passages of scripture are plainer than others. Um, I mean, go to say Ezekiel with the wheels within wheels and the visions, and that's not quite as plain in its meaning as, say, John 3 16. Right. Um, but we continue to, uh, in the words of the apostle Paul to Timothy, study to show ourselves approved. Right. Um, we continue for a lifetime. Oh my goodness, I am, you know, I have multiple degrees and a PhD in New Testament, and I am continually learning and reformulating um some of my understandings. Now, the big picture really hasn't changed in a long time. Um again, there's lots of teachings that are really clear, but there's others uh maybe not as clear, and we want to just continue to learn and grow. And I think a real key here is that we feed ourselves on God's word, that we are in it continually, so that we're just we're thinking biblically. We're um that's that's in our mind and heart, that's our source of life and encouragement. And uh as we do that, um our understanding of scripture will continue to grow and grow.

Brent 18:06

When when you misinterpret scripture these ways, it it's not harmless.

Steve 18:11

No, no, no, there's uh consequences when when it's misconstrued, and that's a that's an ironic one, Brent. Um, and we see that so often. If it's a a much beloved leader who in particular, uh, or it could be a lay leader, and maybe there's an allegation of abusing a family member, yeah. Well, all of a sudden, when those allegations come forth, the wagons are circled, so to speak, and we got to protect the image, the image of the family, the image of the church, and that's the overriding concern instead of protecting vulnerable victims. Right, scripture tells us the pride that the protecting the vulnerable is at the heart of God. That is a mandate from scripture, and if we're not hearing that, uh you know, as as a uh a community, we're misreading scripture, and that happens all the time. My goodness, that happens.

Brent 19:15

I've seen some studies that can say things like when someone comes forward with stories of abuse and they and and uh the spiritual leader responds in a way that silences them or diminishes them, that that can actually do secondary trauma to them that sometimes can be very significant, right?

Steve 19:37

Yeah, not just very significant, there's some social science data on this. So it this would go beyond just you know the spiritual Christian community, but just in general, there's good research to say that the response of caregivers, uh and this is in this research, it was really Related to minors, but I think it'd be a spiritual similar principle for adults, but put it in the context of minors. When a minor comes to parents or beloved teacher, someone who should be the protector with a report of abuse, and that individual that's disclosed to denies, uh doesn't respond in a healthy manner, uh, they they blow it off, or worse yet, they blame the victim, that that can be as or even in some contexts more damaging than the abuse itself was.

Brent 20:36

Wow.

Steve 20:37

Um, there's really good data that to show us that, and it's it's tragic. And in a context of a spiritual family, uh be it a Christian family or a church, that then begins to corrupt one's understanding of God Himself because your pastor, while he's not God, in a sense, he's God's representative, he's God's kind of spokesperson. So if God's spokesperson harms you, fails to protect, just intuitively people project that onto God. God doesn't care. Oh my goodness. Um, and it's just the opposite. Scripture over and over speaks of God's tremendous concern, prioritization of the vulnerable.

Brent 21:27

Yeah.

Steve 21:28

And Satan wants that to get um, you know, denied and distorted. So very damaging when spiritual leaders don't respond in a healthy way to protect. I love the statement in Proverbs 30, and it's kind of the context is the the leader's mother speaking to her son wisdom, and she says somewhere around verse 8 um that he's to be a voice for the voiceless. Yeah, that's um speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. Wow, that that is what God calls all leaders and families and churches to be and do, be a voice for the voiceless.

Brent 22:14

What is our responsibility, especially as a church leader or as a spiritual leader, um to know what God is saying and to know these scriptures correctly?

Steve 22:25

I have a whole chapter on justice mercy. Um social justice as I define it based on scripture, because that phrase you don't know what it means anymore.

Brent 22:35

It can go a lot of different directions, yeah.

Steve 22:37

It can. So I I unpack it biblically. It's a pretty detailed chapter, and I get into even the the biblical language, the Greek and Hebrew words that are used for justice, mercy. Uh, there are several passages that that sum up what God wants of his people. Um, so Brent, I could give you, you know, if you were to say, Steve, well what does it take to be a man of God? I could give you a hundred things, Brent. Yeah. But I could also say, okay, Brent, let me shortlist that for you. Let me tell you the one thing that's most essential if you want to honor God. Yeah, there's lots of things that I could give you, but let me boil it down to if you miss this one, forget everything else. It doesn't matter what you do. Yeah, if you miss this one, you're toast. We have actually some passages like that in scripture, so our ears should be going, wow, okay, I want I want to hear this. God, what is it? Micah 6.8 is probably the preeminent. Uh, because the the and maybe I should read it. Uh, I'm sure many of our listeners are familiar with it, they may not realize that Micah 6.8 is expressly in a context of abuse. Oh. Uh both before and after um graphic descriptions of uh of abuse, um, physically, in particular economically, uh, multiple kinds of abuse uh are being described. And this is one of those hear this, do this, and it does. I don't care what else you do. If you miss this, you not only are not pleasing me, but you will stand under my judgment. I mean, it's a get this above all else. Um, and we have this series of ascending, it's it's it's very hyperbolic language to get jolt us into listening. With what shall I come before the Lord and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings and calves? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams? Let's notch it up. With ten thousand rivers of oil, notch it up further. You know, Old Testament sacrificial system. Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? The if if I give the ultimate, well then is that what God wants? He has told you, oh man, what is good and what does the Lord require? Now he answers that question that he's posed. Do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with your God. That is the big picture of what the God of the universe wants, expects, demands from his people. Justice and mercy. And then he adds, walking humbly, because and those all go together. If we don't have a humble heart before God, then we're not going to be concerned about our abused neighbor. Like it's all about me, uh, as opposed to wow, the God of the universe delights in healing and redeeming, and this fellow image bearer made in the image of God is hurting. They have been taken advantage of. That's what our God wants. I I could give other passages, but I think that's quite clear.

Brent 26:32

Well, and it's so easy to just get a part of that and say, okay, justice, and I'm gonna go on justice, and then you forget mercy. Or go on mercy and you forget justice, or you know, it those three things that triune has got to be together.

Steve 26:51

It has to be there. You're right. If we have mercy without justice, then it's it's not really even mercy. We we yeah, but but going the other direction, if we have justice without mercy, it has to go together, yeah. Um, and it does here, and it does in other passages. Um, Jeremiah 22, um, in Jeremiah 22, and it's speaking to one of the kings, uh, and he says, Is this after describing the father, and I think it was Josiah's uh justice and mercy, he says, Is this not what it means to know me? Yeah, wow. Um, knowing God is described as uh being full throttled uh in a in a commitment to justice and mercy to the hurting, to the disadvantaged, to the oppressed, to the abused. Again, there's lots of other passages um that that is biblical teaching. If we miss that, we have missed the heart of God, and we cannot expect God's blessing. And in fact, it goes beyond that. Um, God holds spiritual leaders to a high standard.

Brent 28:03

What would you say to spiritual leaders? I mean, what would you say to church leaders or spiritual leaders or or counselors? I mean, what what is what is the message that you would give them out of this?

Steve 28:14

The message is you have a unique opportunity as a pastor, as a counselor, or could be another kind of ministry leader. You have a unique opportunity, a powerful opportunity to be the hands and feet of Jesus to those who are hurting. Exercise that privilege with tremendous care and responsibility. And as you do, you will have the unique blessings of God. Read Isaiah 58. Uh, that's probably the the most uh extensive litany of blessings God offers uh for those who prioritize uh caring for the oppressed, the the vulnerable, the the hurting, those who are hurting through abuse and oppression. Um Isaiah's language is who those who pour themselves out. Uh and then he just gives this beautiful litany of uh that God will answer your prayers before you even ask. God's glory will be your rear guard, you'll you'll flourish in the desert in a dry place and on and on. Um because justice, mercy, ministry for the abused, it's costly. Uh yeah, and so uh it's costly in a variety of ways. That's an easy choice. No, when you when you see what's really going on, um you can lose sleep over it, it can give you nightmares. Um it's ugly, and you know, it's it's so much easier psychologically to just close our eyes. Um, maybe Uncle Joe didn't really say that. Well, maybe Uncle Joe's a pervert, and that's exactly what he said. And uh my temporary psychological peace at the expense of the vulnerable is a horrible bargain. Um that that's that's ungodly and destructive. So the yeah, there's a psychological cost, there's often a social cost. Challenge abuse, and you may get, uh dear wife Celeste often says, when you stand with the oppressed and abused, you get what they get.

Brent 30:27

Yeah.

Steve 30:28

And so yeah, there can be a tremendous social cost, etc. And that that's why I emphasize first and foremost that the blessings of God. God, God will stand with us. Um, we we surely every spiritual bleed leader wants God's blessing. Well, as we prioritize what he prioritizes, he promises those blessings. So um I guess that would be my kind of Cliff Notes admonition to spiritual leaders.

Brent 31:00

Well, and I think too, as someone who's been on staff at churches for a long time, this is not something, don't wait until the situation arises to learn how to deal with it. This the this is something that you um you preach on now, you study now, and you prepare yourself for because the stories are gonna come. It's not it's when. It's when and the more prepared you are before, the better you're gonna handle it. Um, I think so often uh the stories come up and all of a sudden they scramble and try and figure out what to do. And it's some, you know, the horses have left the barn at that point.

Steve 31:37

That's a great point, Brent. And I mean, many of the soul exists as a ministry to resource the body of Christ.

Brent 31:44

Yeah.

Steve 31:45

So we have all kinds of resources, many of them free, downloadable on our website uh to guide church leaders, everything from articles I've written to uh uh you know our healing workbook to all kinds of things uh to guide churches. And there are lots lots of resources these days. Um, but that's such a good point. And I when I do trainings for church leaders, I say, make sure you have a child protection committee. Now you know the insurance carriers are are demanding churches have screenings and policies, otherwise, if there's a uh a lawsuit, they won't cover it. And you're on your own. So, you know, money talks. But uh, I also advocate uh having a committee um uh for adult abuse, you know what so that you you're not waiting until the woman comes into your office uh and in tears discloses her husband's been beating her for 20 years, and then you're scrambling to figure out what well what do we do, especially if her husband is a trusted church leader. And I have seen that more than once. Um well, form a little committee ahead of time to create some resources and trainings and you know, etc. Um, referral lists, so that when those allegations come, and it's it's not if it's when, as you said. Um, you you as a church, you you've been preparing, you're ready for the crisis, and you can respond with with wisdom. And and you're not handling it alone. Proverbs says, in a multitude of wise counselors, there's sure victory.

Brent 33:25

Yeah.

Steve 33:26

Uh yeah, you you want to be working on this ahead of time. And and even little congregations most likely have a few people that you can pull in. It may be a counselor, it may be a social worker, it may, you know, I think in my last pastorate, um, and I formed a child protection committee. We didn't have policies at that time. This was quite a few years ago. Uh, and I put a committee together. It was mainly from our church, but I pulled in a few outside people as well. So it was very multidisciplinary. And um, and then we put policies together and trainings and and advised the the board, and it was so helpful. And then when we did have some incidents, we already had policies. We had a a wise team that uh, you know, made such a difference. It wasn't, I'm gonna figure this out on my own in the in the heat of the moment and hope I get it right. Uh, that's a sure, surefire way to get it wrong.

Brent 34:25

Yeah, yeah, and and and preach about it, don't hide it.

Steve 34:29

Absolutely. Yeah, that's such a good point, Brent. And it's ironic because evangelicals, one of the one of the characteristics uh of evangelicals uh distinctives is a high view of scripture and letting scripture guide our behavior, practices, beliefs. There are literally hundreds of passages, hundreds, that address just physical abuse alone, and dozens that addressed sexual abuse, uh, and other kinds of abuse, verbal, etc. Um, all forms of abuse are addressed in scripture. Uh people often don't think about the fact that it was physical abuse that prompted Noah's flood. Yeah, it was abuse along with idolatry that prompted the Babylonian captivity. Yeah. In 1 Timothy 3, one of the qualifications for an elder is he's not abusive. Like I've applied for several pastorates, and let me tell you, that check list, not an abuser. That question doesn't come up as a it doesn't come up, but the fact that we're not thinking that way shows that we've just short-shrifted the the repeated teaching of scripture. So when scripture has so much to say, yeah, let's address this from the pulpit, let's address this in Sunday school classes and premarital counseling, etc. Um, yeah, we have a lot to work with biblically, and again, many of the soul resources uh are a tool to do that. God entrusted advanced theological education to me, and I've sought to use that to serve the church. So um my books are replete with scripture. Um so it's you know, our church leaders don't have to reinvent the wheel, and I'm not the only one. Um, and there are others uh who are beginning to address abuse uh in biblical ways as well. So get some of those resources, and and and this new book is particularly a tool to do that so that church leaders can respond well. For years, have pulled uh my seminary students and um those at seminars when I do trainings and ask them a very simple question. How many of you have ever heard a single sermon or Sunday school lesson on domestic violence? Yeah, or or other kinds of physical abuse. Yeah, I've never had more than five percent. And and I've done this poll dozens of times. Like, whoa, what gives? Um, so okay, uh my point here is not to thump on the church. I I'm part of the church, I've devoted my life to uh helping the body of Christ. I believe in the church, so let's let's make a change here. And and again, we've we're not just talking about it, we provided some resources, and this book um is part of that collection of resources to help church leaders address this well.

Brent 37:36

On the other side of that, what would you say to those who have someone who has who who's listening to this and say, yeah, that's what happened to me. And and that's the kind of word I heard. What would you say to them in terms of uh uh how to respond to that or what God's really saying or how to move forward?

Steve 37:57

Yeah, well, I I would start by saying, I'm really sorry that's what happened. Uh that's a distortion of the heart of God, and that's the opposite of what should have happened. So if I could just say that as a spiritual leader, it grieves me that that's so many people's experience.

Brent 38:16

Yeah.

Steve 38:17

Um and maybe I could just recount one biblical example to encourage our listeners if that has happened, if they particularly if it was a spiritual leader in their life who abused with impunity, it was covered up, it was ignored. Uh, the victims either weren't listened to or worse yet were shunned and blamed. Um, what does God think of that? Let me just point you to first Samuel. Uh, Eli the priest seemed to have been in every domain of life a very godly man, except that he had very ungodly, abusive sons, Hophni and Finn and Phineas. Um, how can you forget those names? Um, and those sons were abusive. The the text is really clear, uh chapter two in particular, that they were uh having sexual relations with women in the temple. He doesn't go into detail, you know, was that forcible rape? We're not sure, but it was horribly sinful. And given their position, their spiritual authority, it was certainly spiritually abusive. And um, and probably it was probably forced rape because they were also threatening people, taking meat offered in the sacrifice and forcibly seizing the meat uh and threatening the people. So they were they were terribly abusive in the house of God, and Eli actually confronted them, but he didn't stop them. And we see in chapter four what God thinks of that. God struck Eli dead. Wow. Yeah. Uh wow. He he didn't, he wasn't part of it. You know, Eli wasn't doing the abuse, but he didn't stop it. And he even said it was wrong, but he didn't stop it. So that speaks volumes to us about what God thinks of a scenario where spiritual leaders fail to protect, fail to remove uh an abusive spiritual leader. God detests that. Not because God is a hateful God, but because he's a loving God and he cares deeply for the vulnerable.

Brent 40:43

Yeah. Yeah. Um that is, I mean, that is sobering.

Steve 40:50

It's really sobering. Absolutely.

Brent 40:53

Steve, I we've only just touched the surface of this. We will be having much more and deeper conversations about this. Uh, if if you want to get the book, you can get it at the Mending the Soul website. You can get it on Amazon, you can get it really almost anywhere books are sold. Read it thoughtfully and go through it and let the scripture illuminate this. And let the Holy Spirit illuminate this in ways that we can't. Steve, why don't you uh close us in prayer?

Steve 41:21

Be delighted. Lord, we are so grateful that you are a God of justice and mercy. You absolutely delight in healing our wounds and restoring. And so often we don't understand that. Um sometimes families and churches um act in ways that are they're so hurtful that that misconstrue your word. So, Lord, I pray for any of our listeners, and I'm sure there are many who have had scripture weaponized against them, that you will renew their confidence in your goodness and the trustworthiness of your word, your love letter to us. Lord, for those listening who need healing from trauma, I pray uh that you will do a deep work uh in healing their souls. Continue to guide us, Lord, in this lifelong journey of restoration. We love you. We are so thankful that you are a God infinitely committed uh to our healing, to our wholeness. In Christ's name, amen.

Brent 42:31

Amen. Thank you so much for joining us for this first episode of Soul Sessions. This is a podcast of Mending the Soul, and we will be bringing you much more content on Te Healer Harm, as well as voices of subject matter experts and survivors telling their stories. If you'd like to contact us, you can always email us at podcast at soulsession.org. If you have any questions or comments, uh let us know. We'd love to hear from you. Until next time. Bye-bye.